Removes command from being eligible for round start antagonist #28173
Conversation
silverplatedelta
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Yes please. if you want to antag with Command stuff, assassinate or mindslave your boss and step up as their replacement. |
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Objection per discord comments: |
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Controversial PR, and a lot of people are gonna yap about soul removal, but if you're genuinely saying "yeah someone who can roundstart antag and hand all access out like candy to other traitors is a good thing", get your head checked. I dunno if I wanna go in on this gun's blazing, but defo worth a long term TM to gauge player viewpoint. |
ParadiseSS13-Bot
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Testmerge Requested
yeah hop is debatable, but other heads? nah, qwerty message prettyy much summs it up |
There is not a safe hook in the department just because a head would no longer be eligible for a round start antagonist. They could easily be fired, blackmailed, extorted, or converted. We have these mechanics in place for a reason, but they hardly get the use they have now. At this point the head antagonist limit has not stopped anything other than it brings down two command antagonists teaming up. This provides more incentive for RP, this helps to stop a few problems that are a constant occurrence. If you over trust a command because you think it is meta, it might just be your downfall. That element of paranoia still exists with this change. |
As I said with the discord as well, blackmail is hard enough to pull off, and we as admins probably don't approve it as much as we should, and conversions are not nearly common enough to keep up paranoia. It does not stop them from being overly trusted. |
That is why we are trying to change that narrative. I can't speak on what an admin should or shouldn't do, in regard to providing more meaningful RP opportunities. This could potentially bring more conversions up as a means to achieving objectives. If you over trust someone in this game, it can still be a mistake. The fact that you think you can trust someone now easier makes it even more of a threat factor when it turns out they weren't to be trusted in the first place. |
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^ it uses job.title which is Quartermaster not Quarter Master |
Co-authored-by: HMBGERDO <[email protected]> Signed-off-by: Burzah <[email protected]>
Yup. I misread it. Thanks for catching it! |
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WW PR |
Right. I forgot that is all handled in dynamic now. Well I will make the adjustments here soon. I still need to change flavor text and handle the teleport gun in general. EDIT: Also keeping the changes made to the game modes, in case we do fall back to those for any reason in the future (which I don't know why we would at this moment in time). |
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-Status: Awaiting review
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I agree on all points with Qwerty and Ramon here. If the goal of this is to stop antags from getting AA then it should stop at the HoP. Even then, having AA is not the be-all win all condition. It's also something security can counter.
Why should they be more trustworthy, antag status already takes priority over the command position they're in. I don't see a reason why a syndicate spy/sleeper agent/changeling/vampire cant work their way up the ranks. They're on a remote research station in the middle of nowhere near a place called "Lavaland" they're not working in central command.
I dislike the idea that all heads should be teachers, letting players choose how they want to run their department is a boon not a detriment. Not to mention that working in command is a learning experience in and of itself. We also have the addition of a dedicated role for teaching.
I dislike the idea of using OOC info that someone cant be an antag, the fear of repercussions comes from the antag taking action against you should you tell security what you saw, not the head of the department telling said antag you tried to snitch.
Not entirely sure how it encourages more RP, people should not feel forced to go along with any blackmail or extortion attempts, if anything it would restrict antags choices to mostly kidnapping. I would argue that having two antagonists who may be lying about their objectives to each-other or have each-other as objectives encourages better RP and is more fun. Overall this feels like a restriction of content, kneejerk reaction and Intended or not, an increase in the difficultly of playing an antag. All of which does not mix well for me, for now, I also object to these changes. |
The goal here is way bigger than stopping the command from just getting AA. That was covered in the sections above.
That doesn't hold any water in my opinion when you have the captain and security officers held to a standard that demands more trust. It doesn't matter where they are working, they are being entrusted with large amount of NT assets, something NT would want to at least try to safeguard, as they do with things like Corporate Security and a vetted captain.
That has always been apart of being in command. You are there to make sure your department runs efficiently and effectively. If you don't want to take the responsibility for all the things the department is, including its staff, you should not be playing command (in my opinion).
We do, and that is for teaching players who need their hand held through everything. Something I don't expect a commander to be able to do, command should at that point coordinate with CC or a trainer to help in these cases. We do expect command to teach others who might not be familiar with a certain job or procedure within a department.
They absolutely still can be an antagonist. We are not mind shielding them. They can be converted, mindslaved, and even thralled. A member of a department should in theory trust their commander though in times where things may be questionable. Command in this sense is supposed to help safeguard their departments including from threats within (which is part of the reason for this PR in general).
It wouldn't restrict an antags choice to mostly kidnapping at all. I know for a fact that admins encourage players to ahelp so that unique situations can be played out, this would encourage that. It just requires some effort now, which is something we want to see overall. Fun is also subjective.
Well it is a restriction of some content yes, for the sake of improving other content. It certainly is not a knee-jerk reaction to anything though. In fact, this was a PR that was something that we discussed for almost two years now. It just finally took shape today. I have had this conversation with Matt alone a few times while being on the development team. It is meant to increase the difficulty of antagonist by not handing out good gear and access round start without having to make some effort. All that said, I appreciate you sharing your concerns about the PR. Right now this PR is in draft, and will eventually by TM'd. That means it will be open for adjustments. This is something I truly believe in and that I think we should try, in order to help shape our content in a healthier way. |
unsure if this is a good idea, the telegun is good, but im unsure if its hijack good, granted i haven't seen it that much since it was nerfed. Maybe that nerf should be reverted for this? unsure, probably best for another pr though. |
I will take that up with balance, but this was decided since this weapon is for the RD only as is right now. So it is okay for this PR, but would be fine in another one, if we want to remove it from the game while this is on TM. Balance team was not for just transferring it to science. |
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THANK YOU, I hate being antag while being command, people always wanna know where you are so if you start to stop working you get fired SO fast, also it felt a bit stupid IC wise that agent had access to high risk items right from the start, like why send other agent if you already have an agent that have access to it without it being a crime. |
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Mindslaving and thralling happens once every 50 rounds. No one takes blackmail or bribes seriously. Brig physician was removed for a reason and this is just bringing him back as CMO. HoP not being able to roll roundstart antag makes sense, but the other heads rolling antag will just bring less roleplay opportunities into the round, especially QM. he is just a glorified cargotech, he doesn't have access to a lot more gear than a normal cargotech would have. |
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What even is blackmail in the context of SS13? I've never even heard of anyone trying to use it. They either threaten the use of force, use force immediately without the threats, or try to bribe (and fail, and then resort to one of the others). |
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I am all for this PR for a lot of reasons. First off, the thing that bugged me the most were the lore implications. You're telling me Nanotrasen screens their security officers to completely guarantee they aren't some evil space something-or-other, but they don't check their prestigious command members? The ones they let swipe for alerts, run entire divisions of the station, and entrust with high-value items? It never made sense to me why Command could be any antagonist more than a changeling or maybe a Syndicate sleeper agent. Second, the mechanical aspect. Part of the fun of steal objectives is the challenge to reach them and the tension when you need your boss's precious magboots. It completely removes most risk when you're a trusted member of Command who can break into a lot of places without anyone batting an eye, and it completely strips the game of challenge when you can just ASK the Research Director for their armor. All in all, I think this is for the benefit of the server and I hope it gets fullmerged. It'll get rid of alot of those issues with objectives and make for much more interesting roleplay. Atleast, better than "Whiskey cola, give me your armor" |
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I'm a nobody so feel free to ignore, but. We recently added a 2-head cap that leans heavily towards only 1 head in most cases, which feels like it made commandtag significantly rarer, was that not enough? |
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The idea itself is okay, feels like it should have a bit more leeway rather than just outright banning them from antag-ship as Command roles, because it makes them way too trustable. Can't really get with the WIGFTG reasoning though for various reasons |
Unfortunately, that's just how the game goes. If you would like to play antagonist, you can play antagonist. If you would like to play Command/Security, you can play Command/Security. Fishing for a specific scenario where you get this job and this antagonist is an absurd and often very disappointing way to play. Play the hand you're dealt! If you didn't get the job and antag you wanted, make do with what you have and make an interesting strategy out of it.
The point of this PR doesn't seem to be to completely eradicate Command/antag activity. You're still going to be able to mindslave, enthrall, or otherwise convert them. It's to clear up the issues that arise with objectives for the player and for others, opening up better roleplay opportunities and the ability for command to be a trustworthy mentor to newcomers. |
I heavily object to the idea that I'm a fisher just for being opposed to this. I'm not cryoing when I don't roll antag. I don't want to dump a bunch of non-command roles into my preferences to avoid being randojobbed as a tot, I'm sorry if having sec on high and psych on low is the meta for that. |
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Have to disagree with the point that it RP makes sense that heads are 100% trustworthy, when there are real world examples of spies and traitors in high command roles in very paranoid real world governments. From an RP/lore perspective, I don't see why that couldn't be the case in space. To talk about Azhpy's point:
The answer here is security officers are mindshielded. It is a literal form of brainwashing. They only seem to do it for asset protection crew, or crew that have the authority to overrule those positions (Captain, CC). Otherwise, why not mindshield the entire crew of the station since it supposedly conducts cutting edge research on a high value station? Lore aside, from a gameplay perspective it just seems to restrain the sandbox nature of the game a bit more. I don't know what conversations were had outside of this PR when it comes to alternatives, but in a quick discord chat us rabble talked about things like restricting command access instead (eg, RD doesn't have brig/evidence). |
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Isn't this going to lead to a lot more Heads being Round Removed so that a traitor in their department can ascend to Acting? Most Heads aren't really worth it to mindslave. Most people in general, really. |
It's not fishing, it's a genuine concern. If you play 1/2 roles on a single character (having different characters for different roles is based) and the character you're playing is a command character, this will make it so you instead get assigned a completely random role which may be something you have no idea how to play (or actively dislike playing). Both scenarios will lead to the job probably being abandoned completely instead of trying to actually do the job for a bit before doing antagonism. |
I'm not accusing you of being a "fisher" I'm just saying that you're seeking a very specific scenario. If you want to actually play the important job, you can roll for it. Otherwise, you've been randomly assigned to it as an antagonist. It's not like you went out of your way to take the most important job and do nothing. If Roboticist wasn't meant to be played as an antag, then why is it available? Why do they get their own job-specific item? It's to encourage more dynamic gameplay!
That's what I do! I pick a job I'd like to play for if I don't get the job I want or that may make for an interesting antagonist round, and set it to low. Then I either play that job, or I have a blast as an antagonist. If it's too conflicting of a choice between not getting the job you want , you can always observe for midrolls! |
Well, I don't know what I can do about this. That's just how the game assigns it. If you don't want to be assigned a random job, you can either broaden your range of jobs or turn off antagonist. It is a roleplay game, after all! You also can always make a new character that has a wider range of roles it can play as to not interfere with your other characters' roles. |
"Just turn off antagonist" or "Don't do the thing where your character realistically can only do 1-2 jobs" is uhh... A take of all tiem. |
You mean what I do. I have four characters, each with one or two jobs, one of which is mostly command jobs and jobs that fit the character, but are often contested. And then I set the game to randomize slots.
Honestly? If the game let us pick per-character antag settings, it wouldn't be an issue. Bc then the answer would be "just turn off antags on your command character" instead of "just lock yourself out of antag content entirely" |
IM SORRY BUT WHAT ELSE AM I SUPPOSED TO SAY? Unfortunately, this is just how the game assigns roles, and if you don't like it you can compromise, complain, or code. Random job assignment spices up gameplay, and the alternative is setting low job preferences. I can't control your preferences for how you play the game. I, for one, am unbothered by a wide variety of roles for one character because none of the shifts are canon. |
What Does This PR Do
This removes the following roles from being able to role as a round start antagonist. This does not mean they will be mindshielded, only that they will now not be able to be traitors, vampires, or changelings. They can still be converted, thralled, mindslaved or even hired into the command position.
In addition this also moves the Telegun to a hijack only item strictly for scientists.
Why It's Good For The Game
This is good for the game for a few reasons:
Heads should be trustworthy and vetted even more so than security officers. This aligns more to what is considered acceptable behavior when even considering the hiring of command staff.
Heads should be the teachers of the departments, as well as the ones to make sure their departments are secure. They have an overall responsibility to be commanders.
Reduces antag rolling on command positions for gear and access specific reasons. If an antag wants these things, there are many in-game means to achieving this without being a round start head.
Heads can now be trusted by their subordinates more. This means being able to report crimes they see without the fear of repercussions.
It encourages more RP means of manipulating or removing heads as an obstacle, such as blackmailing, extortion, getting them fired, or other means of mechanical control (thralling, mindslave, etc).
Testing
To be conducted
Declaration
Changelog
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Tweak: Removed command from round start antagonist eligibility.
Tweak: Telegun moved to hijack only item for scientists.
/:cl: