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Additional information without electric climate #3

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Vortecsz opened this issue May 4, 2024 · 77 comments
Open

Additional information without electric climate #3

Vortecsz opened this issue May 4, 2024 · 77 comments

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@Vortecsz
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Vortecsz commented May 4, 2024

Hello, would be possible to display coolant, speed, rpm and voltage without the Electronic climate? I know how to activate the electronic climate tab in the bottom but I don't have the automatic climate so this is useless for me. Would be possible to show maybe the coolant and battery in the first page of the screen without auto climate? If not why? The data are pulled from the ECC or is something related to the print on the display? If the problem is the ECC I could search for the different address of the data's in the can line? If the problem is the print why I couldn't print in the first page? Thank you so much for the work!

@PNKP237
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PNKP237 commented May 4, 2024

Battery is out of the question for now, I haven't been able to come up with a way to read battery voltage from MS-CAN other than through ECC.
As for coolant temp and vehicle speed, it is possible to read it using measurement blocks from the display (but then there's no RPMs nor voltage). I'll try to implement that in the next version (it will try reading reduced data from display if there is no response from ECC) - I guess you can expect the new version in one or two weeks, still optimizing and testing stuff.
As for why - it uses the same protocol that OPCOM or Tech2 use for reading measurement data and only ECC offers coolant temp, speed, rpms and voltage combined. If these tools can't access more data from display or radio neither can we.

Haven't had much luck with sniffing the coolant, rpm and speed data like it was defined HERE. In my case (Z16XER) I was reading total garbage, but once I get reading basic data from the display done I'll try again with these.

@Vortecsz
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Vortecsz commented May 4, 2024

Love to hear that, it would be possible to display like the coolant in the first page? I would like to have the coolant temperature in the main page without need to swap page everytime

@PNKP237
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PNKP237 commented May 5, 2024

First page as in the mode where song data is shown? I guess I can make it like this but it would require me to rewrite a lot of current logic.
I would much rather show the coolant temp in a "notification box" that sometimes appears in the top right corner of GID/CID, able to be toggled on or off. Do you think that would work for you?

@Vortecsz
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Vortecsz commented May 5, 2024

fYpTDQNOJ2mItZ7v
That's my current setup, in the top the current media, like aux etc in the bottom consumption etc, my main goal would be to add like coolant in the top right, but if is it hard, I would understand maybe one day I will understand how to program that haha. The notification box would be also not bad at all. Btw if you need to change the gid firmware you can with a Little EEPROM writer, is pretty easy to do. I don't know if you can modify the firmware maybe I can give you some files to look at if you need

@PNKP237
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PNKP237 commented May 5, 2024

Alright, you have a single line GID so writing the coolant info to the album or artist fields won't work because you won't see them anyway. I had the single line version as well but I enabled UHP just to make it display all the three lines of text.
The notification box will work fine but it will obstruct the top right part of the display.

As for GID firmware, EEPROM only holds basic data such as settings and carpass (if paired with the radio). and the GID firmware itself is held inside this TSOP flash package I think, difficult to read that data without a TSOP adapter. Don't feel the need to modify the GID firmware anyway, I'd like this project to work plug-and-play with no modification to the rest of the system

IMG_20240402_180641

@Vortecsz
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Vortecsz commented May 5, 2024

Oh okay, would be possible to print in the top right with the single line gid? Or just you can't because u need to overwrite an existing text? Like artist aux etc. Btw with the the EEPROM firmware you can change different version 3 line version, single etc, but if you don't want to modify any firmware that's pretty useless.
I don't know if you know but a Russian guy seel an obd device probably something similar to your setup, that can show DPF status etc, in the gid, that's only an idea for the project, I don't need DPF status etc. My main focus is to see the coolant temperature and maybe battery in the main page as stock as possible. Because Opel decided to not add any temperature gauge in the cluster...
Thank you for the help.

https://www.pepas.cz/projekty/opel-mkj-cz/

@PNKP237
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PNKP237 commented May 5, 2024

Yes the notification box can be displayed even with single line GID.
As I have already stated in the other issue there is no way to read DPF status from MS-CAN and that's the only CAN bus I'm going to support in this project, mainly because ESP32 only has a single CAN peripheral. Otherwise I would need additional hardware to be able request DPF measurement blocks from ECU through HS-CAN.
I recently learned that such module exists but making menu interfaces is not something I would like to focus on at this time even though I have already reverse engineered how the menu can be created.
The problem is that if this is put in a vehicle equipped with UHP it could cause problems because that module "fakes" being an UHP interface menu

@PNKP237
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PNKP237 commented May 5, 2024

Nevermind, the notification box does not show up when the main audio page is displayed. I guess I'll try to fit coolant info on the right of the middle line or find another way to display notifications
I'm surprised you prefer the single line version though

@Vortecsz
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Vortecsz commented May 5, 2024

Oh okay, I prefer the single line because I watch a lot the consumption and the autonomy of the car so I would need to swap page every time. The first page of the three line only display audio information and I only use aux so I would see only aux and nothing more. I prefer to see the consumption

@PNKP237
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PNKP237 commented May 5, 2024

The display is not very good at handling longer strings and as a result the coolant temp is printed on top of the title text. Sometimes it's ignored and not printed at all, for very long song titles

image001
image002
image004

I don't know if I should go ahead with this, the result is kinda bad

@Vortecsz
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Vortecsz commented May 5, 2024

You are right, that's not good at all for posting it, I don't know if you can put the string down the song or you can just write in the line of artist/song name. Btw can you give me the code? I can use the coolant on the right of the AUX string? Because I just use aux so is not a problem for me and thank you for all the help and the amazing work you are putting in the project.

@PNKP237
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PNKP237 commented May 5, 2024

You can't "add" anything to the AUX string sent by the radio, you can only overwrite it.
I built this test version on top of EHU32 which is still not ready for release, but once it's finished I'll give you the code with this functionality added, with a way to customize the text displayed to your liking

@Tomi8609
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Tomi8609 commented May 6, 2024

I will keep an eye on this part of the project!

@PNKP237
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PNKP237 commented May 6, 2024

Just pushed v0.9, added an additional mode (accessible by long pressing "3") for displaying just the coolant temp in a single line, looking like so:
IMG_20240506_215940_1

You can change whatever is written there by modifying line 157 in CAN.ino.
If you want the text to be aligned to the right, you can also change lines 110, 111 and 112 in TextHandler.ino to reference "DIS_rightadjusted" rather than "DIS_leftadjusted". There is also a "DIS_centered" option which should be self-explanatory.

@Vortecsz
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Vortecsz commented May 7, 2024

That's beautiful thank you so much for the work! Currently waiting for the esp and the modules to arrive to get it working.

@Wop57
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Wop57 commented May 12, 2024

There is an example for showing information in the electronic climate tab. It is in the issue #3 in the Car-CAN-Message-DB of JJToB. Here is the link:
JJToB/Car-CAN-Message-DB#3

@PNKP237
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PNKP237 commented May 12, 2024

There is an example for showing information in the electronic climate tab. It is in the issue #3 in the Car-CAN-Message-DB of JJToB. Here is the link: JJToB/Car-CAN-Message-DB#3

Thanks, never noticed that one.
Even though I have considered showing the temperatures there it still does not solve the underlying issue - if the car does not have ECC (or at least not enabled in Display Variant Programming, changing which requires opcom, which kinda defeats the "as cheap and easy as possible" approach) then we can't utilize that field.

Already tested with UHP but it does not send any notification boxes, only menu-like screens.
I'll do some additional research to see if I can simulate Navi notifications, but that has to wait since I'm super busy with other things. Also I need to get the CD ROM drive back into my Navi since it refuses to display anything without the drive mechanism.

@Vortecsz
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Hello is possible to change the pinout with this board?
CP2102 Type-C 38P

image

@PNKP237
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PNKP237 commented May 16, 2024

I don't exactly understand what do you mean by "change the pinout", please elaborate.
Is it just changing the pins, as in you'd prefer the CAN TX/RX or I2S on different pins than provided in my example?

Defining CAN RX TX pins is done here:
twai_general_config_t g_config = TWAI_GENERAL_CONFIG_DEFAULT(_TX_PIN, _RX_PIN, TWAI_MODE_NORMAL);

If you want to redefine I2S output pins, here is how to do it.

@Vortecsz
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Oh yes sorry, I searched for the defaults pin out of can Rx tx and i2s, example for can Rx and tx io4 and io5 wired them up in my esp board but isn't working at all. Maybe is the board? And I need to define manually the gpio? I find that the default pins are the same for the 38 pins board and the 30 pins board so I don't know why isn't working

@Vortecsz
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After reflashing the esp every time I connect the board to the car the aux text go away and the current date is displayed is like the radio doesn't work because the buttons don't do nothing but I can hear the sound from the speaker so the radio is on. If I remove the esp everything work as usual

@PNKP237
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PNKP237 commented May 16, 2024

Curious. I do most development on a setup like yours (GID and I assume CD30MP3) and never had the radio stop responding. What model year is your vehicle?

@Vortecsz
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Vortecsz commented May 16, 2024

I don't have the cd30 mp3 I have the cd40 USB btw the car is a Corsa d from 2013. if I inject 5v with the USB c the radio crash but I if inject 5v directly to the board the radio doesn't crash but if I long press button 1 nothing happen. Using Ms can from obd pin 3 and 11. I disconnected the i2c just for the testing and the problem persist. I will try with another board as soon as it arrives, can you confirm that without the i2s interface the mode "coolant mode" with button 1, or that the esp enables Bluetooth

@PNKP237
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PNKP237 commented May 16, 2024

i2s is just an output and if you leave it not connected it does not matter to the ESP32 at all (it doesn't receive any data from PCM5102). Also please use a 12V to 5V USB car charger and not the CD40's USB port for power. If you have any electrolytic capacitors on hand you can also solder it to the ESP32 board just to make sure it is not dirty power.

EHU32 will enable bluetooth and start sending stuff to the screen after it notices that the radio has sent some text to the display, it starts with the "1" mode active (audio metadata). You don't have to connect to switch to the "3" mode (1-line coolant info).

If you can, please download version 0.7 from releases and try connecting your phone and playing something to see if the audio title is displayed at all. Of course it won't have the "3" mode and "2" won't work but I would like to see if the "radio message blocking" feature is the problem here (v0.7 is the last version without it).

@Vortecsz
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Vortecsz commented May 16, 2024

Okay, my problem is the 5v and grounds using a car charger with USB port. Gonna try others configuration. Anyway mode 1 work with song names, mode 2 show coolant hope I'm correct, mode 3 show speed and rpm, the rpm and speed are wrong when I'm idle at 800 it shows 3000 same for the speed I'm going 90kmh and it shows 45. Mode 2 coolant is partially wrong if I long press settings and after bc I can access the secret menu of the gid and I can see the little difference between the two coolant value, your is a bit high like 3/4 °c. The audio quality sucks, but that's my problem with the connection, I would love to see you PCB design did you manage to get that done?

Btw if I connect the pcm5102 with vin and ground from esp the can interface crash and the radio also crash, I still didn't understand why

@PNKP237
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PNKP237 commented May 16, 2024

It's the other way around, mode 2 should show speed and RPMs and if there is no ECC detected it will try to pull that data from CAN but as I said earlier in my vehicle I would read random values so I haven't had much luck testing that. I guess I'll remove that option from next version since it doesn't work that well - I'll make it only show speed that's read from the display.

I think that the ground of the audio input in CD40 might be either floating or coupled with caps to ground, I'd suggest to measure with a multimeter between the audio input ground and vehicles ground to see if there is any voltage there. If there is then one fix would be to either modify the radio or buy some kind of an audio separation transformer.

Thanks for the feedback, I'll correct the speed display (just multiply it by 2 I guess?) when I have some free time next week to possibly test it within my vehicle. As for coolant I'd say it's the GID that's lying since these cars notoriously run hot.
As for the PCB... I'll get around to finish it one day but I've got a lot of things going on right now.

@Vortecsz
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Vortecsz commented May 16, 2024

Okay I resolved all the problem with the connections, the problem is that the audio quality sucks really bad. I don't know why the power is from a car charger with a USB cable, not from the radio. It's connected with an aux cable to the radio the aux female input is factory from the car as the cd40 USB has aux input

Btw the speed yes divided by 2 is gonna be perfect

@PNKP237
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PNKP237 commented May 17, 2024

I hope your PCM5102 isn't broken, here's a test program for you to flash the ESP32 with, please connect it to an amplifier at home so you can check whether the audio output works properly. It has no CAN functionality so you can connect to it and just play music from your phone.
ESP32_Audio_Stereo.zip

Additionaly please check whether you connected BCK, LRCK properly and ensure the pads on the back of PCM5102 are shorted according to the schematic (with H3L not shorted).

@Vortecsz
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As soon as I have a chance I'll try it thank you very much. Just a question: the ESP power supply should be given through the USB connector or i can give it directly to the vin and gnd pins?

@PNKP237
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PNKP237 commented May 20, 2024

Yes, you can power the board through the VIN pin, on some boards it's connected the same 5V line as the USB VBUS pin, on other boards it's connected through an additional diode. Just make sure you don't power the board through VIN and through the USB connector (from PC) both at once.

@PNKP237
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PNKP237 commented Oct 21, 2024

Depends on the application playing the music, but in my experience it works with all default music players, YouTube app and Spotify. Works with Spotify on iPhone as well.

@PNKP237
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PNKP237 commented Dec 8, 2024

Hello guys, back to the topic on hand - engine coolant temperature problem
Here's what I got working, coolant temp being displayed on top of the audio metadata:
IMG_20241208_175304_1_1

This window can be updated separately from the audio stuff which makes it easier. It also works without electronic climate control, it does not even have to be enabled in variant programming (no need for opcom, just plug and play), nor does it influence the temperature set on the AC panel, so no need to worry that the car will start blasting you with 90C+ air.
There's just one downside, if the temperature exceeds 99 deg C, the degree symbol won't be shown, but still I'll try to implement it in v0.9.4.

@PNKP237
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PNKP237 commented Dec 8, 2024

Blower level popup window is a better option after all:
IMG_20241208_192336
It obstructs the clock but I think that's fine. Any criticism regarding how the temp is displayed?

@Tomi8609
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Hello

How often does this window pop up or is it there all the time?
Is it possible to display the battery voltage in the same way?

@PNKP237
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PNKP237 commented Dec 10, 2024

It can be there all the time, constantly updating or be shown for just 5 seconds (just like AC does).
As for battery voltage, this window only fits 3 characters so no decimal point, seeing a battery voltage like "12V" or "13V" is a little pointless.

@Tomi8609
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I understand

Thank you

@Tomi8609
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I think it's enough if it's only visible for 5 seconds

@xymetox
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xymetox commented Jan 11, 2025

It can be there all the time, constantly updating or be shown for just 5 seconds (just like AC does). As for battery voltage, this window only fits 3 characters so no decimal point, seeing a battery voltage like "12V" or "13V" is a little pointless.

You may use small font to fit more characters.
Two size floating window -25C

@PNKP237
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PNKP237 commented Jan 11, 2025

I tried this but for some reason my GID (from a 05 vectra) wouldn't respect the formatting sequence. Not sure what's the issue here but I'll try again some other time.

@devilsoul13
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hello I love this project it's been a long time that I want to interact with the canbus of my astra h from my side I want to display the information of my cid on a tablet or a phone can you help me out? what would I need as a canbus module to read the information? what is the cabus line for this information (ms can lcan h can) for the development part of the application no problem but I do not know what hardware to use to communicate with the canbus. thanks

@PNKP237
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PNKP237 commented Jan 13, 2025

The display is connected to both LS-CAN (GMLAN) and MS-CAN so if you wanted to replicate its functionality you'd have to read data from both buses. You could use bluetooth serial port to transmit CAN data to your tablet.
ESP32-C6 is pretty good if you want to interface with two CAN instances. There are cheap C6 development boards you can use with some CAN transceiver modules like MCP2551 or TJA1051. Classic ESP32 (like the one EHU32 runs on) only has one CAN peripheral. In terms of hardware, look at the .pdf "schematic" in the root of this repository.
STM32F4 boards are also pretty good if you don't need bluetooth/wifi, some of them even have 3 CAN peripherals.

@devilsoul13
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first of all thank you for the speed of your response.
in my country (Tunisia) there are these cards
can you tell me which is the best because there is a big difference in price.

https://www.celectronix.com/cartes-et-kits-stm32/2810-stm32f4-discovery-stm32f407g-disc1.html
https://2btrading.tn/accueil/8778-carte-de-develeoppement-esp32-c6-devkitc-1-8mb-spi-flash.html

with which canbus I have to work MCP2551 or TJA1051?

@PNKP237
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PNKP237 commented Jan 13, 2025

https://2btrading.tn/accueil/8778-carte-de-develeoppement-esp32-c6-devkitc-1-8mb-spi-flash.html

Get the ESP32-C6 then, it's easier to work with under arduino or ESP-IDF compared to STM32. Setting up bit timing is also easier with ESP32. The ESP TWAI driver isn't perfect but works well enough if you're not transmitting much.
Classic ESP32 is half the price but it'll only support a single CAN bus - https://2btrading.tn/cartes-de-developpement/6677-carte-de-developpement-wifi-esp32-esp-wroom-32-nodemcucp2102.html

with which canbus I have to work MCP2551 or TJA1051?

any CAN transceiver module will work for MS-CAN or HS-CAN (for example SN65HVD230, TJA1051, TJA1050) just get whatever is cheaper for you. Remember that one board can only handle one CAN bus.
as for interfacting with LS-CAN it's more complicated because it's a single wire CAN line, for reading data you could just use a transistor to invert the signal but for transmission/receive combined an actual SWCAN transceiver is pretty much required, I used MIKROE-4225 because it's pretty much the only SWCAN module available locally

@devilsoul13
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I would like the most efficient and easiest solution especially for assembly to avoid soldering errors and other

@devilsoul13
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https://2btrading.tn/accueil/1089-can-bus-shield.html
this canbus shield can support multi can connection ?

@devilsoul13
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what do you think about can shield and arduino ? beacause its simple to connect (plug and play)

@PNKP237
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PNKP237 commented Jan 15, 2025

Classic arduino (atmega328 I guess?) is slow and canbus shield is an external CAN peripheral (MCP2515) and as such it'll be even slower (runs over SPI). Also MCP2515 (not to be confused with CAN transceiver MCP2551) can't run on MS-CAN by default because the timing is wrong (can't set 95kbit unless the clock crystal is changed). It can only support only a single CAN bus at a time.
Just buy jumper wires to connect the boards

@devilsoul13
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ok THANKS .
so the best configuration for my project would be :
https://2btrading.tn/accueil/8778-carte-de-develeoppement-esp32-c6-devkitc-1-8mb-spi-flash.html
and x 2 https://2btrading.tn/accueil/624-module-sn65hvd230-can-board.html
(2 canbus sn65 one for ms and one for ls can)?

@PNKP237
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PNKP237 commented Jan 17, 2025

Yes that will work but only for MS CAN and HS CAN. Regular CAN transceivers won't work for LSCAN because it's physically different, it only uses a single wire.
For LS CAN you will need something like MIKROE-4225.

@Tomi8609
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Hello

I would like to create the following project:
https://github.com/ElKaPa/opel-can-swc-adapter
Can you help me with what I should change in the ino file to enter the secret menu by long pressing the two phone buttons on the left side? This works with the "Setting" button on the original radio and the "BC" button is used to step through the menu.

  • 201#01FF00 - Enter the BC menu
  • 201#01C000 - Return to BC

@devilsoul13
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Great but for displaying cid info I think I don't need ls can for exemple for radio and climate control.
And for engine info I can use simple Bluetooth elm327 with tork app

@PNKP237
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PNKP237 commented Feb 3, 2025

Great but for displaying cid info I think I don't need ls can for exemple for radio and climate control. And for engine info I can use simple Bluetooth elm327 with tork app

Hope you don't intend to remove the orignal display module since CID reads vehicle data directly from LS-CAN and retransmits that data on MS-CAN so without the original display MS-CAN is pretty much dead so unless you're able to replicate the authentication/anti-theft system stuff like radio and climate control will not work at all. If you want your project to run alongside the original display then it's fine.

Hello

I would like to create the following project: https://github.com/ElKaPa/opel-can-swc-adapter Can you help me with what I should change in the ino file

Sorry but the project you're referencing uses a different CAN adapter which I don't know how to use and don't really have the time to learn to understand it.

@devilsoul13
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Great but for displaying cid info I think I don't need ls can for exemple for radio and climate control. And for engine info I can use simple Bluetooth elm327 with tork app

Hope you don't intend to remove the orignal display module since CID reads vehicle data directly from LS-CAN and retransmits that data on MS-CAN so without the original display MS-CAN is pretty much dead so unless you're able to replicate the authentication/anti-theft system stuff like radio and climate control will not work at all. If you want your project to run alongside the original display then it's fine.

Hello
I would like to create the following project: https://github.com/ElKaPa/opel-can-swc-adapter Can you help me with what I should change in the ino file

Sorry but the project you're referencing uses a different CAN adapter which I don't know how to use and don't really have the time to learn to understand it.

Happy to see you again
No is not my attention to remove original display I can leave it and just add tablet or phone like principal display

@Technolog83
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Technolog83 commented Feb 15, 2025

Hello. I assembled a device on ESP32 WROOM32. Xiaomi MI10 Lite phone is connected. I took power from OBD connector via 7805CV with radiator. Current consumption is 180mA and radiator heats up to 60°C. Isn't that too much?
If I connect this to the CD changer drive 8V through 7805 - will it hold up?

Image

@PNKP237
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PNKP237 commented Feb 15, 2025

Current consumption is 180mA and radiator heats up to 60°C. Isn't that too much?

Eh, should be fine. That electrolytic cap is probably getting it the worst but as long as you don't squish it next to the heatsink it should hold up.
In my case I soldered the tab of the 7805 to a large groundplane on CD70's PCB, it makes for a good heatsink.

If I connect this to the CD changer drive 8V through 7805 - will it hold up?

Yeah that's a better choice, it's what I used for testing when soldered inside CD30MP3, shown here. The unit's steel cage was used as heatsink, as shown in this post.

@Technolog83
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Technolog83 commented Feb 15, 2025

Thanks for the answer!
I connected an 8 V power supply and the heating became weak, about 40 degrees. I screwed 7805 to the radio case.
My ESP32 board does not have an antenna output - Bluetooth has a range of no more than 30 cm, the radio case greatly dampens the signal. I will order another board.

But there is a problem with the sound. The sound is very loud and plays with a clear overload.
I turned down the AUX IN to -12, the sound became at the level of CD or radio.
When the input signal level is reduced to -12, the sound quality is also lost, and the detailing is lost. Therefore, the level had to be returned to 0.
The difference in the sound level of the CD disc and ESP32 is about 15-20 dB.

But the sound quality is bad, it seems that the sound from the ESP32 is output at maximum volume. Adjusting the volume on the phone does not help.
I can make a video of the problem.
How to reduce the output signal from the ESP32?

Update: this problem is in the Deezer player.
If the Android player or YouTube is playing, there is no distortion.

@PNKP237
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PNKP237 commented Feb 15, 2025

Deezer player

Since you said you have xiaomi phone, connect to EHU32, make sure nothing is playing, then go into bluetooth settings and tap the arrow to the right of EHU32 and uncheck "Keep volume consistent", helped in the case of my poco f6 since Poweramp player would also start clipping sometimes. Other times I need to restart bluetooth and reconnect for it to behave properly (happens only if I was recently using a different bluetooth audio device), I have to admit that xiaomi's firmware is garbage when dealing with bluetooth audio, haven't had any problems under LineageOS based ROMs

@Technolog83
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Thank you! This solved the problem!
I also read that there is a problem with the word "AUX" appearing periodically.
I checked it on the table, and indeed, there is no pattern in the word appearing or the screen flashing. But one day, while listening to YouTube, a pattern was discovered: the word "AUX" appeared every 40 seconds. And after 4-5 seconds it disappeared again. This happened for 16 minutes, then I decided to check it in the player, and it did not happen.
Maybe this information will help in solving the problem.
Thank you!!!!

@Technolog83
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Technolog83 commented Feb 17, 2025

Friend, I have another question.
Installed in the car Opel Vectra C, EHU: CD70 + ECC.
Speed, RPM and temperature - perfect.
Voltage - does not correspond to the real -14.2V. The value constantly changes from 0 to 25V.

What could be the problem?

Image
Image
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Image
Image

@PNKP237
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PNKP237 commented Feb 17, 2025

Voltage - does not correspond to the real -14.2V. The value constantly changes from 0 to 25V.

This bug has already been reported in another issue. Single-zone ECC (from Astra, Zafira etc) must be different to a dual-zone ECC and I don't have access to a vectra/signum anyway. Next release will attempt to read voltage from the display directly so it should be compatible with all vehicles (even those lacking ECC).

IMPORTANT NOTE:

If you have issues using EHU32, please consider creating another issue in this repo instead of posting in this one. This way we avoid spamming people's email inboxes with reply notifications unrelated to their original issue while important bugfixes/workarounds will be easier to find.

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