Surround sound #49

mariotaku · 2021-04-11T16:08:19Z

Moonlight is almost able to handle it, but hard to test yet.

royka1 · 2021-04-13T15:12:42Z

I could test it, have a receiver connected with hdmi arc

ryang3d · 2021-04-14T01:18:08Z

Moonlight is almost able to handle it, but hard to test yet.

@mariotaku Could you elaborate on what makes surround sound hard to test? Like @roykaandorp, I (and surely many other people) have the equipment necessary to test this and would be happy to help test if that really is the only thing getting in your way of testing surround sound.

ryang3d · 2021-04-14T01:40:51Z

For what it's worth, I just tried running the built in "Speaker Setup" in Windows 10 while running moonlight-tv v0.6.8. The L/R channels sounded correct, but the other 4 test tones came out of the same L/R speakers (not my surround/center/sub speakers). I have my 65SM8600PUA hooked up via optical cable to a Denon AVR-S510BT, which does provide working surround sound with other WebOS Apps such as Plex.

mariotaku · 2021-04-14T03:26:25Z

@ryang3d I don't have surround sound device for verification, which is the reason.

ryang3d · 2021-04-14T03:52:55Z

Understood. We're definitely happy to help test surround as needed. Thanks again for all the effort!

circoloco696 · 2021-04-14T06:34:10Z

I could help test surround sound too if needed with a full 7.2 setup.

royka1 · 2021-04-26T18:31:12Z

I've tested surround with version 0.7.5 and I can say it's working!
Used the following video to test:
https://www2.iis.fraunhofer.de/AAC/ChID-BLITS-EBU.mp4

ryang3d · 2021-04-27T00:39:13Z

I've tested surround with version 0.7.5 and I can say it's working!
Used the following video to test:
https://www2.iis.fraunhofer.de/AAC/ChID-BLITS-EBU.mp4

Nice! @roykaandorp, can you share any details about your home theatre configuration? What receiver are you using, what TV are you using, what cable (optical or hdmi) are you using between your TV and receiver, etc.

UPDATE: I just tested surround sound using 0.7.5 (again using my same setup: 65SM8600PUA hooked up via optical cable to a Denon AVR-S510BT), but all the surround test tones are coming out of my front left and right channel speakers. No sound comes out of my center, rear left, rear right, or sub woofer. Definitely curious to hear about your working setup.

mariotaku · 2021-04-27T04:34:18Z

Not sure if @roykaandorp is using local builds. This feature is work in progress and only available in debug builds (not in releases). But if it can play surround successfully, would be a great news indeed!

royka1 · 2021-04-27T08:22:07Z

I'd tested with the release 0.7.5
Tv model is 75uk6200, amp is a marantz nr1609 connected to the hdmi ARC port. As decoder I use webOS NDL.
The amp recognizes the signal as Multichannel, so do'n set it manual at dolby or something but set it at auto.

royka1 · 2021-04-27T16:01:55Z

I've tested surround with version 0.7.5 and I can say it's working!
Used the following video to test:
https://www2.iis.fraunhofer.de/AAC/ChID-BLITS-EBU.mp4

Nice! @roykaandorp, can you share any details about your home theatre configuration? What receiver are you using, what TV are you using, what cable (optical or hdmi) are you using between your TV and receiver, etc.

UPDATE: I just tested surround sound using 0.7.5 (again using my same setup: 65SM8600PUA hooked up via optical cable to a Denon AVR-S510BT), but all the surround test tones are coming out of my front left and right channel speakers. No sound comes out of my center, rear left, rear right, or sub woofer. Definitely curious to hear about your working setup.

Correct me if i'm wrong, moonlight uses multichannel pcm for surround, optical out doesn't support that (not enough bandwidth). So unless the tv first transcodes it to a dts/dolby digital stream (that I assume will give noticeable latency) it won't work. I think it will only work with ARC.
Edit: After some reading it seems to be possible (at least with a raspberry)
https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=172536#p1425779

mariotaku · 2021-04-27T16:18:13Z

@roykaandorp Just a bit curious, because I don't remember I have provided enabled surround sound yet. I'll do in next release though.

royka1 · 2021-04-27T17:20:38Z

@roykaandorp Just a bit curious, because I don't remember I have provided enabled surround sound yet. I'll do in next release though.

Yes I was surprised too, because you didn't mentioned it in that release, but i'd seen you was busy with that so I tried and it worked. With the older release I was using (0.6.8) my amp recognized the audio as stereo, now with 0.7.5 as multi in, the test video confirmed every channel works.
Edit:
As weird as this sounds, when I try again it gives only stereo, I'm pretty shure it did work as I saw it on my amp, test file worked correctly en looked at which decoder moonlight was using. Maybe an error at the desktop side, because I used moonlight before on an sbc with surround? I'm sorry for the confusion.

mariotaku · 2021-04-27T18:10:12Z

@roykaandorp I can confirm that none of previous version has correct setup parameter for surround sound.
BUT, v0.7.7 comes with correctly configured one. PulseAudio with 5.1ch works flawlessly.

root@LGTV:~# pactl list sink-inputs
Sink Input #16
        Driver: protocol-native.c
        Owner Module: 1
        Client: 53
        Sink: 1
        Sample Specification: s16le 6ch 48000Hz
        Channel Map: front-left,front-right,front-center,lfe,rear-left,rear-right
        Format: pcm, format.sample_format = "\"s16le\""  format.rate = "48000"  format.channels = "6"  format.channel_map = "\"front-left,front-right,front-center,lfe,rear-left,rear-right\""
        Corked: no
        Mute: no
        Volume: front-left: 65536 / 100% / 0.00 dB,   front-right: 65536 / 100% / 0.00 dB,   front-center: 65536 / 100% / 0.00 dB,   lfe: 65536 / 100% / 0.00 dB,   rear-left: 65536 / 100% / 0.00 dB,   rear-right: 65536 / 100% / 0.00 dB
                balance 0.00
        Buffer Latency: 18333 usec
        Sink Latency: 15852 usec
        Resample method: copy
        Properties:
                media.name = "Streaming"
                application.name = "Moonlight TV"
                native-protocol.peer = "UNIX socket client"
                native-protocol.version = "31"
                application.process.id = "9255"
                application.process.user = "prisoner"
                application.process.host = "LGTV"
                application.process.binary = "moonlight"
                application.language = "C"
                application.process.machine_id = "LGTV"
                media.type = "pdefaultapp"
                module-stream-restore.id = "sink-input-by-application-name:Moonlight TV"

mariotaku · 2021-04-27T18:12:53Z

To use surround sound,

Set "Audio backend" to "PulseAudio" in Settings -> Decoder Settings
Set "Audio channels" to "5.1 Surround" in Settings -> Basic Settings

And enjoy! PulseAudio comes with acceptable audio latency, and I'll be trying to improve it in future releases.

ryang3d · 2021-04-28T00:55:31Z

Correct me if i'm wrong, moonlight uses multichannel pcm for surround, optical out doesn't support that (not enough bandwidth). So unless the tv first transcodes it to a dts/dolby digital stream (that I assume will give noticeable latency) it won't work. I think it will only work with ARC.
Edit: After some reading it seems to be possible (at least with a raspberry)
https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=172536#p1425779

You might be onto something there... I enjoy surround sound, but I'm not much of an audiophile and my knowledge of requirements and compatibility are limited. Out of curiosity, I did try loading up the fraunhofer.de video in my TV's built-in web browser, and the surround sound worked perfectly (but when run through moonlight-tv it still comes out stereo only, even with v0.7.7 with PulseAudio and 5.1 enabled). But from what it sounds like you are saying, is that moonlight's potential use of multichannel PCM may be why it is not working in my case (makes sense!). Looks like it may be time for some system upgrades here!

Definitely curious about the experiments in that raspi link, but not gonna get my hopes up there.

Stoked to see this all come together. Keep up the amazing work!

EDIT: Just thought I'd add that there is a good amount of discussion on this topic now that I've looked around more myself. Everything looks to confirm @roykaandorp's suggestion. One good example is here: moonlight-stream/moonlight-android#482 (comment)

royka1 · 2021-04-28T06:30:08Z

You might be onto something there... I enjoy surround sound, but I'm not much of an audiophile and my knowledge of requirements and compatibility are limited. Out of curiosity, I did try loading up the fraunhofer.de video in my TV's built-in web browser, and the surround sound worked perfectly (but when run through moonlight-tv it still comes out stereo only, even with v0.7.7 with PulseAudio and 5.1 enabled). But from what it sounds like you are saying, is that moonlight's potential use of multichannel PCM may be why it is not working in my case (makes sense!). Looks like it may be time for some system upgrades here!

Definitely curious about the experiments in that raspi link, but not gonna get my hopes up there.

Stoked to see this all come together. Keep up the amazing work!

EDIT: Just thought I'd add that there is a good amount of discussion on this topic now that I've looked around more myself. Everything looks to confirm @roykaandorp's suggestion. One good example is here: moonlight-stream/moonlight-android#482 (comment)

As seen here https://fwd.nl/app/uploads/HDMI21-earc-1024x459.jpg it only seems to be possible to get multichannel pcm with eARC. Read somewhere that LG tv models of 2020 or newer support that. Maybe take a look at transcoding it to ac3 isn't a bad idea?

mariotaku · 2021-04-28T13:05:56Z

Please keep in mind that encoding audio via software is much slower especially for multiple channels. Too much processing will make latency unbearable, especially for gaming purposes. Currently there are only 2 ways reasonable, one is to play 5.1ch PCM, another is feed opus audio directly, although I'm not sure how well webOS can handle.

mariotaku · 2021-04-28T13:06:51Z

For the second way I've been investigating for quite a long time, but seems the channels are always incorrect for webOS.

royka1 · 2021-04-30T15:29:20Z

Please keep in mind that encoding audio via software is much slower especially for multiple channels. Too much processing will make latency unbearable, especially for gaming purposes. Currently there are only 2 ways reasonable, one is to play 5.1ch PCM, another is feed opus audio directly, although I'm not sure how well webOS can handle.

I'm afraid you're right, however I found a post of someone who said he's using it succesful (didn't mention about latency), but for that the alsa plugin a52 is needed, I don't know if it's possible to use that with the read only file system?
I've been trying to compile it, but didn't succeed

Another option I was thinking about, encoding it as ac3 on the host. Did a request for that as option at the Sunshine github, but probably then the client needs an adjustment too?

mariotaku · 2021-05-01T07:06:24Z

@roykaandorp Alsa is not working by any attempt on webOS. So this couldn't be an option. Also transmitting other audio codec then opus is not possible, as this whole protocol should be exact same to NVIDIA's official implementation.

royka1 · 2021-05-02T13:17:28Z

@mariotaku There is also a dts encoder that should work with pulseaudio and could also be integrated. But I can imagine that it would take too much effort, as there is no guarantee the latency will be acceptable.
https://github.com/darealshinji/dcaenc
About transmitting it as a ac3 stream from the host, I was talking about an open source host.
Edit: a DTS frame seems to be 10.666ms, so that would be at least the delay, ac3 frames are 32ms

mariotaku · 2021-05-02T14:51:21Z

I was thinking about doing some experiments about performing opus -> pcm -> ac3/aac conversion, but this will bring a whole lot tasks.
Maybe this will be my final attempt to bring surround sound on my own, if this approach not working, I'll have to close this issue and waiting for contributors' patches.

mariotaku · 2021-05-02T17:11:47Z

A little bit update: opus -> pcm -> fdk-aac can have sounds, but have some problems. I'll fix this then you can try on your TV.

mariotaku · 2021-05-03T00:07:12Z

So I have implemented AAC encoded playback on webOS 4 (NDL Audio). But there are few problems:

on webOS 5, NDL only support PCM, Opus and MP3. No AAC/AC3 usage found in NDL
AAC Encode + Playback brings nearly 100ms of latency. While it's not bad for playing videos, it's not optimal for gaming.

If AAC playback doesn't have surround sound, then I can say it's nearly not possible for Moonlight to have surround sound on webOS.

royka1 · 2021-05-03T20:01:45Z

Would like to try out, but have some difficulties with building the NDK, hopefully fixed now. Ubuntu 16.04 had some files it couldn't download, 18.04 errors on building qemu. Found a fix for that so hopefully it will build now, then I shall test the surround tomorrow

mariotaku · 2021-05-04T01:22:33Z

Would like to try out, but have some difficulties with building the NDK, hopefully fixed now. Ubuntu 16.04 had some files it couldn't download, 18.04 errors on building qemu. Found a fix for that so hopefully it will build now, then I shall test the surround tomorrow

You can grab prebuilt NDK to save some time, plus it can run on almost any distro

mariotaku · 2024-03-10T01:35:50Z

I have purchased a small gear to decode 5.1ch AC-3 from HDMI ARC. After it's arrival I'll do more research to see if it's possible to play surround sound.

astarktc · 2024-03-10T04:29:04Z

@mariotaku

Awesome, hopefully your research and testing pans out. I really appreciate your effort on this (and I'm sure many others do too!).

BTW, I figured out that the DD+ codec is EAC3, which is the most likely format that this windows atmos for home theater is using for output. Hopefully, the device you bought supports that too, but if it doesn't work for what you're trying to test, if it's AC-3 only that could be a reason why.

Don't know if you found these already, but I found a few developer focused resources in case they're helpful:

https://professionalsupport.dolby.com/s/article/Dolby-Atmos-ADM-Profile-specification?language=en_US

https://developer.dolby.com/platforms/windows/dolby-atmos/implementation/

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/coreaudio/spatial-sound?redirectedfrom=MSDN

Now, in regards to the formats you mentioned that webos can handle, that's for decoding right?

From what I'm reading on LG's dev site, those are the formats supported for standalone audio. If sunshine is streaming the video and audio separately, that makes sense. The key to supporting AC3, EAC3, etc is to mux the audio and video together into a single stream via the mkv, mp4, or ts formats:

https://webostv.developer.lge.com/develop/specifications/video-audio-230

So, I think what you're looking to implement is what software like Plex, Kodi etc do: stream a muxed audio/video format to the TV over the network.

If in your research you find folks complaining about plex not streaming atmos on the webos app, I now realized based on that info above that it's because those folks are usually trying to play truehd audio from blurays, and that documentation makes it plain that truehd isn't a supported format, but DD+ (EAC3) is supported, so that won't prevent you from accomplishing the goal here.

Technically, I don't even want moonlightv to decode the audio at all, I want it to pass through to the receiver. However, I think once the stream is streaming through mkv, mp4, or ts, that the webos decoder is automatically going to follow the tv's settings and pass the EAC3 through to the receiver.

Just thinking outside the box, one other area we can also use to look for this information might be their DRM documentation. We all know the content creators/studios pushed hard for content protection for media played through streaming apps like Netflix, so maybe we'll find what you need here?

https://webostv.developer.lge.com/develop/specifications/streaming-protocol-drm

https://webostv.developer.lge.com/develop/guides/drm-content-playback

mariotaku · 2024-03-10T06:57:09Z

@astarktc There are multiple principles for surround sound codec:

It has to be real time streaming capable and as low-latency as possible. Thus muxing video and audio won't be an option.
It must not have any copyright/patent issue, so something like Dolby Atmos won't be possible to be implemented by sunshine or moonlight at all.
It has to be supported by HDMI ARC (and eARC) standard

That's why AC-3 is the only option left. It can be encoded by FFMPEG, seems to be supported by webOS when streaming audio.
Also for newer models, it looks like they support 6-channel PCM too so there's hope.

astarktc · 2024-03-10T21:18:34Z

I understand. We have to work within the limits we have, unfortunately. It would be nice if LG didn't make this difficult, especially in 2024.

I did some more research, and copyright wouldn't be an issue for atmos as that is there is no license cost for atmos for games through windows.

Truly, our only roadblock is the inability to mux without introducing latency 😞 if standalone e-ac3 decoding was supported in webos, it would be easy to capture the encoded audio from windows spatial sound and pass it through, even if we were only targeting 5.1/7.1 and discarding the atmos metadata.

What I need to find is the least expensive client device that can support HDR, 7.1, and 120fps at the same time. Probably a mini or sff pc. That seems to be the only way to avoid any compromises.

mariotaku · 2024-04-04T16:43:12Z

OK so here comes my first update of surround sound feature take 2:

Proof of concept works! OPUS audio got decoded to PCM, re-encoded to AAC-LC on TV and passthrough to the receiver. I can hear sound coming from the correct speaker.

However there are more problems that need to be solved:

Latency is over 1000ms, which is obviously unacceptable
Encoding audio shouldn't happen on TV, 1024 audio samples (21.3ms) needs 25ms to encode
License issue. While FFMPEG can encode AAC, if the GPL licensed encoder doesn't work then it would be difficult to add another audio codec for Sunshine.

marvin-roesch · 2024-04-04T16:59:01Z

@mariotaku While I've moved onto streaming via NVIDIA Shield, I've still got my modifications to Sunshine for experimentally switching the audio codec to AAC-LC, encoded using the Fraunhofer FDK AAC.

I'll see how easy that is to update to the latest Sunshine version and then maybe push the fork so you can try it out for yourself to check if moving the encoding step right to Sunshine helps or if the encoder simply isn't fast enough.

mariotaku · 2024-04-16T02:26:59Z

Good news for everyone - 5.1 surround is really working & with pretty good performance!

There are a few limitations:

This only works on webOS 5+ at this moment, maybe the same tech can be applied to webOS 4, but I have no plan supporting surround on even older platforms.
webOS can only recognize a certain audio config, so audio stream has to be encoded again on the TV which is not ideal. After feat(audio): custom surround-params LizardByte/Sunshine#2424 gets merged & released, double encoding will no longer needed.

GingerAdonis · 2024-04-16T05:31:06Z

Great to hear. Very exciting. Is a new release on your side required as well?

A backport to webOS 4/4.5 would be appreciated.

mariotaku · 2024-04-18T02:01:52Z

@GingerAdonis Hi, I also tried to work on webOS 4, but unfortunately, I didn't find a way to play surround audio with low latency yet (it has more than 1000ms of latency). So I'm unable to support webOS 4 and below at this moment.

GingerAdonis · 2024-04-18T07:51:48Z

@GingerAdonis Hi, I also tried to work on webOS 4, but unfortunately, I didn't find a way to play surround audio with low latency yet (it has more than 1000ms of latency). So I'm unable to support webOS 4 and below at this moment.

Thank you for giving a shot. :)

mariotaku · 2024-04-24T09:05:24Z

This feature has been released in 1.6.13 and above. Finally it's implemented and thanks everyone for testing & feedback & providing information!

drsno · 2024-04-24T09:20:55Z

Great work! One thing that is not entirely clear yet, does this also work with GFE or only with Sunshine?

mariotaku · 2024-04-24T09:27:58Z

Great work! One thing that is not entirely clear yet, does this also work with GFE or only with Sunshine?

It should work with GFE and the current version of Sunshine, with a minor performance degrade. Once my patch for Sunshine is released, the performance will be even better (5ms less latency)

Maltique · 2024-04-24T12:09:38Z

Should this work out of the box ?

I installed 1.6.15, and sunshine's current version (I wanted to test it even though the latency is not fixed yet in it).

But, it only shows up as STEREO PCM on my sound bar, even though I set the audio to passthrough on my TV.

I even tried to install the steam speaker, and set it to 7.1 or 5.1 without success so far.

Thanks a lot for the continued work. I am happy to see such feature arriving to this beautiful port 🙂

mariotaku · 2024-04-24T12:32:37Z

@Maltique It supposed to work on webOS 5+ if you select "5.1 surround". Can you provide more info?

Maltique · 2024-04-24T15:31:21Z

When using GFE, I actually get Multichannel PCM (Yay :D).

Somehow, when using sunshine it does not work. I may try to reinstall my sunshine or look at tips on the internet.

mariotaku · 2024-04-24T15:48:08Z

When using GFE, I actually get Multichannel PCM (Yay :D).

Somehow, when using sunshine it does not work. I may try to reinstall my sunshine or look at tips on the internet.

Got it. For future discussions about this issue you see, please create a new one, so we can drop more info there.

Maltique · 2024-04-24T18:02:17Z

My bad here, GFE is always in surround mode whereas Sunshine switches to it only in games. After some more digging I have been able to make it work.

Thanks @mariotaku

gotwig · 2024-05-11T07:12:03Z

@Maltique It supposed to work on webOS 5+ if you select "5.1 surround". Can you provide more info?

So it doesnt work on WebOS 4? I have a LG C9. I can select the option in settings but had no chance to try yet

mariotaku · 2024-05-11T10:57:30Z

@gotwig No, it doesn't work on webOS 4 and I'm unable to find out any method to achieve that.

astarktc · 2024-05-20T14:51:30Z

@mariotaku I wanted to take a moment to give you my thanks, gratitude, and kudos for fixing surround sound on WebOS 😊

I tested it, and it works perfectly. Latency is imperceptible. With a true 5.1 signal, I feel better about using the upmixing mode on my receiver for the 7.1 effect 😉

Calprainn · 2024-05-29T15:59:57Z

I would also like to say a big thank you to @mariotaku for this really excellent work!! 😊👍 I've been waiting for this for a long time and now I can finally play my games on the LG in 4K, HDR, 120fps and 5.1 surround sound.

rayfilm0815 · 2024-06-06T03:02:38Z

@astarktc I would like to ask if you are using a soundbar? Because I am currently encountering the same delay problem that I have encountered before.

When the TV is set to pass the signal to the soundbar, the surround sound works normally but there is a delay issue
If set to PCM, I can't get surround sound because LG doesn't seem to support surround sound PCM.
It’s amazing if you can still get lag-free performance when using a soundbar!

astarktc · 2024-06-06T03:14:18Z

@rayfilm0815

Half the time I am, half the time I'm not. My LG in the living room has a denon receiver, and the one in my bedroom has a Samsung soundbar. No delay on either 🙂

Is this only happening for you on moonlight, or other content too?

One thing you could try is under LG's sound settings -> advanced -> match screen and sound, and try turning on 'Bypass' if it isn't turned on already.

maxolexis · 2025-01-07T02:10:51Z

@mariotaku

I can't seem to get 5.1 Sound running. As soon as I open the connection to the host, the image freezes entirely. As soon as I switch to Stereo, it works flawless.

I am on an LG C4 on WebOS 9.2.2 and use Moonshine 1.6.28, trying to stream 4k120 with HDR and 5.1.

mariotaku · 2025-01-07T02:15:36Z

@maxolexis Please refer to #481. I'm currently working on solving this issue.

mariotaku mentioned this issue Apr 11, 2021

[COMPAT] 65SM8600PUA #46

Closed

mariotaku added the enhancement New feature or request label Apr 11, 2021

mariotaku pinned this issue May 1, 2021

mariotaku added audio Issues related to audio playback and removed wontfix This will not be worked on labels Apr 16, 2024

mariotaku reopened this Apr 16, 2024

mariotaku closed this as completed Apr 24, 2024

Surround sound #49

Surround sound #49

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