China Internet Center has little armor

[xezon]

Evaluate whether or not China Internet Center should have more armor. It can be killed easily. Reported by Dominator.

Proposal 1

Reduce price. For example from 2500 to 2000.

Proposal 2

Increase structure health. For example from 2500 to 3000.

Proposal 3

Reduce cash update delay bonus. For example from 1800 to 1600.

Proposal 4

Increase various armor types. For example reduce EXPLOSION damage from 70% to 50%.

Proposal 5

Increase hacker slots. For example from 8 to 10.

Proposal 6

Allow to build 2 Hacker Centers at half cost with 4 slots each. Allows to spread out hackers. Only possible if 4 slot center does not violate some Campaign mission that requires 8 slots for it.

Proposal 7

Allow regular Infantry, such as Tank Hunters, to garrison in order to help defend the structure.

[commy2]

It can be one shoted by a Particle Cannon, which is really bad. It even has special armor against particle beams, yet dies anyway.

[Jundiyy]

I don't think it should be changed. We have lowered the price already to make it more attractable.

[xezon]

[Jundiyy]

Also the Internet Centre is not a weak building, it's stronger than many out there. It can survive a Particle Cannon if being repaired, around 20%/25%, unlike most buildings (not including CC/SW), without repair it dies but not instantly, other buildings are just shredded. Also survives a direct shot from a Nuke.
Don't think it's right to say it's weak.

[MTKing4]

A slight HP increase should be considered, just to get rid of "just one click and POOF! your second eco gone" strategy

[ImTimK]

@Jundiyy You sure it survives when you keep moving the particle cannon?

But yea, I personally prefer HP improvement over price reduction, because it's just a mega balance flaw of the game imo.

[Stubbjax]

@Jundiyy You sure it survives when you keep moving the particle cannon?

But yea, I personally prefer HP improvement over price reduction, because it's just a mega balance flaw of the game imo.

Moving the beam has no additional effect. A single beam will be just enough to destroy an Internet Center if absolutely no repairing takes place. A single level 3 A-10 strike will also destroy it.

Regardless, I think this structure needs to be buffed somehow. Below are what I believe could be some appropriate adjustments to make (not necessarily all) to help give the structure more value / viability:

1. Reduce price from $2500 to $2000.
2. Increase HP from 2500 to 3000.
3. Reduce cash update delay bonus from 1800 to 1600.
4. Increase various armour types, e.g. reduce EXPLOSION damage from 70% to 50%, etc.
5. Increase slots from 8 to 10.

1. It feels bad that China has to fork out a whopping $2500 just for a bit of protection on their late game economy. Putting that extra $500 towards another hacker could make quite a difference.

2. Could be controversial, as many players are precisely aware of the firepower required to destroy them - maybe even more so than the price. Changing it might be too big of a disruption to normal / expected gameplay. However, it would be much nicer if they didn't just die to singular Generals Power strikes and required more coordination to destroy.

3. A shorter duration before your investment is returned. Hackers would also rank up faster. Increases risk vs reward, which is a nice dynamic to amplify.

4. Potentially a more flexible way of adjusting health, as individual damage resistances can be tweaked accordingly.

5. Giving protection to an extra two Hackers could make the price more justifiable. Would likely need to be in combination with other option(s), as this increases the structure's target value for the opposition.

I would also probably replace the War Factory with the Propaganda Center as the prerequisite for construction. It never made sense to gain access to the Internet Center via the War Factory, as Hackers require a Propaganda Center to construct anyway.

[xezon]

I would also probably replace the War Factory with the Propaganda Center as the prerequisite for construction. It never made sense to gain access to the Internet Center via the War Factory, as Hackers require a Propaganda Center to construct anyway.

I do not recommend this. There is no need for this. It is a legitimate scenario that a China player could lose a Propaganda Center under fire but still had some hackers around that he could build a Hacker Center for without rebuilding the Propaganda Center.

[Stubbjax]

I do not recommend this. There is no need for this. It is a legitimate scenario that a China player could lose a Propaganda Center under fire but still had some hackers around that he could build a Hacker Center for without rebuilding the Propaganda Center.

I think you're overstating its legitimacy here. The same thing can be said if a player loses their War Factory but still has a Propaganda Center. Besides that, is it not an entirely valid strategy to eliminate a player's tech building to deny them access to second-tier units / structures? For me, it makes more intuitive sense for it to be tied to the Propaganda Center.

Nevertheless, I don't consider this particular aspect of the design to be of great importance and wouldn't mind if it is left the way it is - especially as it is what players are already used to.

[xezon]

I think you're overstating its legitimacy here. The same thing can be said if a player loses their War Factory but still has a Propaganda Center. Besides that, is it not an entirely valid strategy to eliminate a player's tech building to deny them access to second-tier units / structures? For me, it makes more intuitive sense for it to be tied to the Propaganda Center.

You are right my argument makes no sense looking at it this way.

[Jundiyy]

There is also the scan ability from the IC, needing to tech up first would mean a later scan.

1. Is more simple of a change. Currently we have cheaper Hackers, which are also trained faster and also a cheaper IC. So far the change has been good for 1.04+. More test games with this should be considered. Another thing which could be done alongside is make the build time faster, so it doesn't take as long to get it back up.

2. As already mentioned above, hp change would already be a change for players. I still don't see the building as weak when compared to most buildings. People expect more which is why it feels weak. This change would probably be last in the list for me. Maybe Hackers would need to have a higher price to balance as they are cheaper now.

3. I did think of this, it would mean Hackers paying back for the IC quicker and also vetting up quicker, probably not noticeable to most without paying attention to the IC. Although then would Inf Gen be given a small buff as well? I do think this is a safe change but also means a much better return, $10 Hackers would be seen more and be throwing money out 10% faster than they currently do in the IC (which is already 10% faster than normal).

4. This one is similar to 2, so similar answer.

5. This one...it's not as much as a change as the other 2, although it visually shows you a change so could be a reason for complain, probably prefer over the 2 and 4 at this moment.

[MTKing4]

Speaking of IC scan, i think a numerical/visual countdown timer should be added to sat hack II so players can actually plan their strategies and prepare for the scan beforehand would be really useful

[Jundiyy]

That's quite a nice thought. Maybe the satellites can be edited to do a full rotation for every scan. So you can tell when you'd get the scan. Not sure I'd like a number over it. Maybe a number/timer when clicking on it could work.

[MTKing4]

It's one or the other is fine

[ImTimK]

2500HP just makes no sense... AT ALL. With hackers it's worth like $8k!
Not only are you losing this huge investment when it gets destroyed, but in most cases also a big chunk of future income, so the damage is much greater (multiplied a few times probably).

3000HP sounds more reasonable to me as it would be the same as the Strat Center with Hold the Line or a Palace without Fortified Structures.

And that's still relatively weak, like an Arms Dealer already has 2000HP, with Fortification that's 3000HP?

[Jundiyy]

HP could be a way but I just don't see it as good at the moment.
My concern, it would become a very very hard bunker to kill, China would become the only faction without worrying about 2nd eco going down. Surviving a Particle Cannon whilst being repaired, or an A 10 strike and so on. Markets are taken down by general powers and so are drop zones (if built), sometimes you see 2 or 3 Markets go down at once.
China IC in the back of the base, many GPs wouldn't get through or get the damage out before going down (as it's stronger) and the IC would survive, eventually giving Chinas money worth more than 4 Black Markets.

Looking at 1.04+ Beta 3 (last release on GR) and not the original.

With the new changes already, Hackers + IC = $6150, we have already seen Hackers being built during games (by those that read the changelog), IC being used. Hackers have also be seen spread out on the map, being cheaper and built faster.
Of course all the eco from the IC can go down in one go, just like 2 or 3 Markets can, but as they say, "don't put all your eggs in one basket", You wouldn't have Hackers only in the IC in 1.04+, they can be placed outside as well in safe spots. Being cheaper means you are not at as big of a loss.

We can always try the HP way but in return we would probably need to increase the Hacker/IC price again or perhaps the Build Time.
Will still think over it some more.

[MTKing4]

China IC in the back of the base, many GPs wouldn't get through or get the damage out before going down (as it's stronger) and the IC would survive, eventually giving Chinas money worth more than 4 Black Markets

Don't forget that gla tunnels/sneak attack with busses/quads can wreck it very easily, and USA Genpower combos can easily penetrate defenses with spectre/carpet/Moab so i don't think that's a valid point, they say not to put the eggs in one basket, but in reality it's probably the safest and the most effective way to protect hackers if not for the 1 shot kill, while the ones outside can literally die to everything jarmen/snipers/genpowers/anthrax/any other unit

For me personally i would probably never build hackers in a competitive game if I can't secure them in an internet center, not worth the risk even when cheap, $6150 can change the game's outcome

[Jundiyy]

I won't disagree the ones outside can die a lot easier but I am talking about 1.04+ Beta 3 here. And what has been tried.

I did think of the Sneak Attack when writing that up but having a stronger IC would mean Sneak Attacks would not be as problematic, you would have more time to react hence why I didn't mention it. Same for the Gen powers you have mentioned, at the back many will be shot down before they get there and the ones that reach won't do as much damage once it's stronger depending on what they are, Carpet/A10/Spectre.

Just what I have already seen in 1.04+ plus thinking of the extra health that is given and the outcome. As mentioned before, if Hacker prices or IC is reverted with IC + HP up then it might end up being a stable change.

Maybe more tests as Chinas vs other armies with the current build will reveal how good it currently is or not and then we can see if the extra hp is actually needed.

[MTKing4]

That's the whole point, giving china a chance to react

I don't mind reverting hackers build speed to the original, think that would balance it out

[ImTimK]

I won't disagree the ones outside can die a lot easier but I am talking about 1.04+ Beta 3 here. And what has been tried.

I did think of the Sneak Attack when writing that up but having a stronger IC would mean Sneak Attacks would not be as problematic, you would have more time to react hence why I didn't mention it. Same for the Gen powers you have mentioned, at the back many will be shot down before they get there and the ones that reach won't do as much damage once it's stronger depending on what they are, Carpet/A10/Spectre.

Just what I have already seen in 1.04+ plus thinking of the extra health that is given and the outcome. As mentioned before, if Hacker prices or IC is reverted with IC + HP up then it might end up being a stable change.

Maybe more tests as Chinas vs other armies with the current build will reveal how good it currently is or not and then we can see if the extra hp is actually needed.

It’s pretty good in beta 3, but I’d personally prefer to revert internet center price and do the HP thing. Or even revert hackers too to some extent if needed.

It’s just not satisfying as is and I would feel bad if I could kill Excals second eco with one cheapshot.

[xezon]

China late game economy is very bad in 1.04. Easy to kill and expensive. Keep in mind, Internet Center can be built once only. Changing internet center will therefore only have limited impact when there are more than 8 hackers in player arsenal.

[MTKing4]

It’s pretty good in beta 3, but I’d personally prefer to revert internet center price and do the HP thing. Or even revert hackers too to some extent if needed.

Reverting hackers to normal cost is ok (make them 625 to all and 675 for inf maybe) but not the internet center's cost, it should remain 1500, don't forget that with the old cost it makes it harder to get to the scan abilities

[Jundiyy]

@MTKing4 one or the other would surely need to change, IC is currently $1750, not $1500 in Beta 3, the upgrades are quite cheap compared to original, you save $1500 if you upgrade both. Also Inf Hackers having more price than standard wouldn't be good. You still need to be able to make them and pay off, too expensive and they would take a longer to pay off.

@xezon I am comparing to Beta 3, in which China 2nd eco is a lot better, not comparing to 1.04. This can be seen if played, it would be nice if players tried it out first to see the difference as China is a lot more flexible with the change and more forgiving if Hackers are lost. More than 8 hackers are also built.

But anyway, we can try the hp way if most want to, then some prices/times should be reverted, although this would mean that China is not as flexible anymore as Beta 3. It would mean all eggs in one basket, so China would have a nice strong economy as one full IC gives 10% more than 2 Markets at the start (Hackers/Markets are similar in price) and if they get vet (which a stronger IC should give) you would have 120% more than what 2 Markets give, ($1200 vs $2630). Hence the fear of a strong bunker. But if lost then not as easy to recover from, unlike in Beta 3 (flexibility).

Option 3 could also be a stronger IC including Beta 3 Hacker/IC changes, but that might be op as it would be a strong bunker with flexibility to China.

Anyway, let's see what others have to say, then we can try the hp way if it is the way.

[MTKing4]

Also Inf Hackers having more price than standard wouldn't be good. You still need to be able to make them and pay off, too expensive and they would take a longer to pay off.

They start as vet1, and stealthed meaning the make more money while being harder to kill, so increasing the investment cost by a little compensates for that imo

More cost = more reward

Seems logical to me

[Kesanov]

Easy fix for china second eco: Allow hackers to hack in bunkers.

Just kidding.

---

The problem with china eco is that hackers are easy to kill (classic general powers + anthrax & snipers).
I don't think that buffing IC HP will fix it, as you are still limited to those 8 slots.
Possible solution would be limiting those slots to 4 and allowing china to build multiple internet centers.

However, that would be a pretty significant change, which we want to avoid.

[ImTimK]

And allowing multiple ICs would sound great, but not for ZH at its current stage. Might throw people off. Of course, if there are multiple ICs then price and hp needs to be looked at.

I'd love it if we were able to do that, it'll solve all our problems, have it take only 4 hackers with no build limit, in that case price should be similar like $1500 but hp would be weaker, maybe as strong as a bm

Making all hackers stealth when hacking (could be from vet1) would feel less mod'ish, Inf would still have always-stealth vet1 hackers from the get go, which is quite an advantage.

[MTKing4]

And allowing multiple ICs would sound great, but not for ZH at its current stage. Might throw people off. Of course, if there are multiple ICs then price and hp needs to be looked at.

I'd love it if we were able to do that, it'll solve all our problems, have it take only 4 hackers with no build limit, in that case price should be similar like $1500 but hp would be weaker, maybe as strong as a bm

Making all hackers stealth when hacking (could be from vet1) would feel less mod'ish, Inf would still have always-stealth vet1 hackers from the get go, which is quite an advantage.

They still die easily and not hard to detect, as you can hear their sounds and drop anthrax there, see this game
https://youtu.be/Hj1uxk7C-TA

Speaking of which, i think we need a report for that, stealth hackers can be heard when hovering over them.

[ImTimK]

And allowing multiple ICs would sound great, but not for ZH at its current stage. Might throw people off. Of course, if there are multiple ICs then price and hp needs to be looked at.

I'd love it if we were able to do that, it'll solve all our problems, have it take only 4 hackers with no build limit, in that case price should be similar like $1500 but hp would be weaker, maybe as strong as a bm

Making all hackers stealth when hacking (could be from vet1) would feel less mod'ish, Inf would still have always-stealth vet1 hackers from the get go, which is quite an advantage.

They still die easily and not hard to detect, as you can hear their sounds and drop anthrax there, see this game https://youtu.be/Hj1uxk7C-TA

Speaking of which, i think we need a report for that, stealth hackers can be heard when hovering over them.

Yea the sound is a complete giveaway and silly design.

[ZekeDlyoung]

There is this comment in the code of the InternetCenter:

;******************************************************************************************************************* MaxSimultaneousOfType = 1 ; *** Kris: DO NOT INCREASE THIS NUMBER -- UNLESS YOU WANT TO INTRODUCE A LOT OF BUGS! *** ;*******************************************************************************************************************

I do not know what this means, but it always made me hesitant to allow more than 1 (even though the supposed bugs would appear anyway due to faction sharing).

This has to do with the Sat Hack powers, tho I don't remember exactly what the bugs are.

Some mods do add smaller Internet Center type buildings to help improve China sec eco, example: https://www.moddb.com/mods/nproject-mod/images/chinese-spy-post#imagebox

So there is that option.

[xezon]

Proposal 7

Allow regular Infantry, such as Tank Hunters, to garrison in order to help defend the structure.

[Jundiyy]

Yep, I think I'm okay with that. Health increased/Armour change so a super weapon leaves it on very low health. PC doesn't need to be changed since it can just finish it off, but if repaired (even for a second) then it can't.
Although Scud Storm does more damage out of all the super weapons, so it should drop the hp lower than the Nuke imo.

I still think a level 3 Arty/A10/Spectre should be able to take it out. Even if the Hackers survive.

Price should be looked at carefully now since the IC will be stronger, gives a much bigger boost to Hackers and Hackers also vet up a bit faster.

[commy2]

Since Satellite I was fixed and Satellite II is now a manual ability, I see no technical reason to keep the 1 max limit.
Although I personally would keep it at 1, because I'm a purist.

[xezon]

Having multiple Internet Centers could be quite OP though, because of the Hacker speed buff it applies (20% faster hacking).

[Jundiyy]

Well, if we really do want it, we can revert some other changes to compensate. But I am with commy here, keeping it to 1.

[MTKing4]

Having multiple Internet Centers could be quite OP though, because of the Hacker speed buff it applies (20% faster hacking).

We can always revert that buff and make it have multiple ICs, reduce its HP, Price, and allow only 4 hackers

I think that would be the ideal solution, to Spread the risk of having all eggs in one basket.

[penfriendz]

I would really like for it not to get one shot by powers. It's something that, despite me having played for decades, I have never gotten used to and always struck me as unfair and Illogical.

[ReLaX82]

General issue is that China only has maximum 8 secured hackers which is really bad late game. Other hackers die instantly vs anything.

GLA has the best 2nd, USA is in between as the zones have lower HP. In fact I find USAs 2nd the best overall.

I would increase ICs HP for sure so that its worth to spend this money and its secure. Factor 1.5 maybe?

Make hackers better vs radiation also.

[commy2]

Bug with glitched Particle Cannon vs Internet Center interaction has been fixed. Now behaves the same in main branch as it does in 1.04.
Please proceed discussion.

[xezon]

Can we perhaps agree that there should be no single (unstoppable) Superweapon and Generals Power that can kill a 100% health Hacker Center (without nearby Dozer) in one attack? There always needs to be a combination of attack to take it down fully.

If we can agree on that, then we can find the right settings to tweak accordingly.

Unstoppable Powers are:

• USA Particle Cannon
• China Nuke Missile
• GLA Scud Storm
• China Artillery
• GLA Demo Rebel Ambush (they explode and deal damage on mines?)
• ... ?

[MTKing4]

Spectre + level 2 A10

[xezon]

Spectre and A10 can be stopped.

[MTKing4]

then i guess Alphas

[xezon]

Internet Center armor is stronger now against Explosion, Particle beam and Aurora bomb.